|
|
Post by tonybrooklyn on Mar 7, 2016 10:31:51 GMT -8
To those who want to drop the blame at Tom's feet I say this. If there were something to win, a support system that helped, a brand of value, etc.....I don't believe he would walk away. What did Tom have to win by doing this? It's not his brand. The licensing and front office system is set up to benefit the brand....there is no benefit to anyone else....outside of a few wrestlers who navigate the insanity of it all, in exchange for getting their names in the record books.
|
|
|
|
Post by gmellos on Mar 7, 2016 10:34:35 GMT -8
I'm actually amazed at how many wrestling promoters hate the fans. Any who do don't know where their bread is buttered. When Phil Varlese, Ironman Tommy Cairo and I promoted in New Jersey, we always looked a the the fans as "customers;" never taking them for granted. We delivered what we advertised and never pulled the bait-and-switch gimmick some resort to. It's called the "business." And it needs to be run as such. Actually all real businesses are ran that way. You have a product, you sell that product to as many as possible. Act like a D bag and customers will go else where. |
|
|
|
Post by tonybrooklyn on Mar 7, 2016 10:40:15 GMT -8
I'm actually amazed at how many wrestling promoters hate the fans. Any who do don't know where their bread is buttered. When Phil Varlese, Ironman Tommy Cairo and I promoted in New Jersey, we always looked a the the fans as "customers;" never taking them for granted. We delivered what we advertised and never pulled the bait-and-switch gimmick some resort to. It's called the "business." And it needs to be run as such. Spot on. Fred, you came to a couple of my events. As said before, I did the pre event "thank you's". I thanked our fans as they walked out the door and asked them to come back. Our intent was to make them feel like part of our "team". I was ridiculed by many "old school" guys around here for doing so. So be it. I'm me and will always do things my way, I'm not defined by, or subject to, anything past, present or future. I treated my promotion and the brand like a business. What I learned though....as much as people say they want it to be a "real business"....they can't live up to that when they have the opportunity. |
|
|
|
Post by dkm on Mar 7, 2016 18:39:39 GMT -8
I'm actually amazed at how many wrestling promoters hate the fans. Don't understand why they would hate fans, after all fans are their bread and butter.... Honestly, and Tony can back me up here, they put on shit shows with "talent" from their "schools" don't pay and draw 40 people and get mad when fans say it sucked. A lot of them a bitter former/current wrestlers who never made it. The fans don't appreciate their years of experience and what they accomplished in the business. |
|
|
|
Post by tonybrooklyn on Mar 7, 2016 19:19:49 GMT -8
Don't understand why they would hate fans, after all fans are their bread and butter.... Honestly, and Tony can back me up here, they put on shit shows with "talent" from their "schools" don't pay and draw 40 people and get mad when fans say it sucked. A lot of them a bitter former/current wrestlers who never made it. The fans don't appreciate their years of experience and what they accomplished in the business. There is a lot of that out there. They talk about "the business"...but they don't know what "business" is. Maybe I'm just odd, but the first thing I did when I decided to start promoting was form an LLC, a real business entity. Then I registered legally with the county....bought my DBA's.....then signed up for a state sales tax number. I paid sales tax on ever ticket I ever sold....every t-shirt I sold....etc. I filed yearly franchise tax returns. I know I'm not the only one, but I promise I'm one of few. It's everything DKM says here. Subpar talent, dilapidated ring in a crappy building....drawing a handful of people and being made because people won't see their brilliance. Promoter/wrestlers, who own a promotion so they can be on top. They don't bring in good talent because they don't want the competition. Having the audience think someone is better scares them. There are other examples as well....but for the most part....they are all efforts of futility. I had more than one person question me about suspending operations at Lone Star. On the surface, we looked like a "successful" promotion. After being separated (not by choice initially) from the alliance, I cast a critical eye in their direction, promotions and presentation. I made up my mind that I didn't want to be what they were....that I had to be better. For the most part (I'm not saying in all circumstances and there are a couple of promotions who represent themselves well) it's a run down building, crap ring/canvas/aprons, poor lighting, poor sound, no effects, etc. I'm guilty of it too. My excuse? I spent our budget on quality wrestling. I didn't want a "student" show like DKM talks about. Our in ring product was as good as anyones in the region...but it wasn't enough. I realized I wasn't any better than the rest....and needed to change my business plan before continuing forward. I remembered all of the conversations I had with my former partners saying if we can't do it right, we shouldn't do it at all. Quality over quantity. Etc. Now I'm walking the walk. Until I can get the right building, ring, equipment, sound, lights, etc.....having a great roster doesn't matter....I was just another bingo hall (VFW actually) wrestling promotion. Not good enough. Thats the alliance's business plan, not mine. I have pride. |
|
|
|
Post by NWA Fanatic on Mar 7, 2016 19:47:04 GMT -8
Honestly, and Tony can back me up here, they put on shit shows with "talent" from their "schools" don't pay and draw 40 people and get mad when fans say it sucked. A lot of them a bitter former/current wrestlers who never made it. The fans don't appreciate their years of experience and what they accomplished in the business. There is a lot of that out there. They talk about "the business"...but they don't know what "business" is. Maybe I'm just odd, but the first thing I did when I decided to start promoting was form an LLC, a real business entity. Then I registered legally with the county....bought my DBA's.....then signed up for a state sales tax number. I paid sales tax on ever ticket I ever sold....every t-shirt I sold....etc. I filed yearly franchise tax returns. I know I'm not the only one, but I promise I'm one of few. It's everything DKM says here. Subpar talent, dilapidated ring in a crappy building....drawing a handful of people and being made because people won't see their brilliance. Promoter/wrestlers, who own a promotion so they can be on top. They don't bring in good talent because they don't want the competition. Having the audience think someone is better scares them. There are other examples as well....but for the most part....they are all efforts of futility. I had more than one person question me about suspending operations at Lone Star. On the surface, we looked like a "successful" promotion. After being separated (not by choice initially) from the alliance, I cast a critical eye in their direction, promotions and presentation. I made up my mind that I didn't want to be what they were....that I had to be better. For the most part (I'm not saying in all circumstances and there are a couple of promotions who represent themselves well) it's a run down building, crap ring/canvas/aprons, poor lighting, poor sound, no effects, etc. I'm guilty of it too. My excuse? I spent our budget on quality wrestling. I didn't want a "student" show like DKM talks about. Our in ring product was as good as anyones in the region...but it wasn't enough. I realized I wasn't any better than the rest....and needed to change my business plan before continuing forward. I remembered all of the conversations I had with my former partners saying if we can't do it right, we shouldn't do it at all. Quality over quantity. Etc. Now I'm walking the walk. Until I can get the right building, ring, equipment, sound, lights, etc.....having a great roster doesn't matter....I was just another bingo hall (VFW actually) wrestling promotion. Not good enough. Thats the alliance's business plan, not mine. I have pride. The old saying goes, you get what you pay for works in this scenerio. Fans don't want to see students, they don't want to pay to see guys who barely been in the ring. If you use subpar talent and expect a huge gate, you're in the wrong business. I've seen so many shows, good talent, good story telling, and a pay off at the end of the story brings fans to the building. |
|
|
|
Post by tonybrooklyn on Mar 7, 2016 19:56:52 GMT -8
There is a lot of that out there. They talk about "the business"...but they don't know what "business" is. Maybe I'm just odd, but the first thing I did when I decided to start promoting was form an LLC, a real business entity. Then I registered legally with the county....bought my DBA's.....then signed up for a state sales tax number. I paid sales tax on ever ticket I ever sold....every t-shirt I sold....etc. I filed yearly franchise tax returns. I know I'm not the only one, but I promise I'm one of few. It's everything DKM says here. Subpar talent, dilapidated ring in a crappy building....drawing a handful of people and being made because people won't see their brilliance. Promoter/wrestlers, who own a promotion so they can be on top. They don't bring in good talent because they don't want the competition. Having the audience think someone is better scares them. There are other examples as well....but for the most part....they are all efforts of futility. I had more than one person question me about suspending operations at Lone Star. On the surface, we looked like a "successful" promotion. After being separated (not by choice initially) from the alliance, I cast a critical eye in their direction, promotions and presentation. I made up my mind that I didn't want to be what they were....that I had to be better. For the most part (I'm not saying in all circumstances and there are a couple of promotions who represent themselves well) it's a run down building, crap ring/canvas/aprons, poor lighting, poor sound, no effects, etc. I'm guilty of it too. My excuse? I spent our budget on quality wrestling. I didn't want a "student" show like DKM talks about. Our in ring product was as good as anyones in the region...but it wasn't enough. I realized I wasn't any better than the rest....and needed to change my business plan before continuing forward. I remembered all of the conversations I had with my former partners saying if we can't do it right, we shouldn't do it at all. Quality over quantity. Etc. Now I'm walking the walk. Until I can get the right building, ring, equipment, sound, lights, etc.....having a great roster doesn't matter....I was just another bingo hall (VFW actually) wrestling promotion. Not good enough. Thats the alliance's business plan, not mine. I have pride. The old saying goes, you get what you pay for works in this scenerio. Fans don't want to see students, they don't want to pay to see guys who barely been in the ring. If you use subpar talent and expect a huge gate, you're in the wrong business. I've seen so many shows, good talent, good story telling, and a pay off at the end of the story brings fans to the building. Using great talent....booking a story line driven event....I only drew between 200-300 monthly. We had some 350 crowds. Some promoters thought we were killing it. I was upset because we couldn't turn fans away....which would have forced us to a larger building. I guess "success" has different meanings to different people. Drawing 2-3 hundred people doesn't interest me any more. |
|
|
|
Post by MKCS on Mar 7, 2016 23:54:25 GMT -8
Can only talk about Australia but there aren't a lot of bright promoters over here either. Maybe five in the entire country who actually are making decent money out of it.
The problem we have here is that there is just too many promotions in the same area. In Sydney alone (Which is where I live) we have about eight promotions trying to get a piece of the Sydney market but the promoters only seem to be interested in being hobby promoters and don't really care about the product. We've got one promotion ran by TNT who has worked Dragon Gate and Zero-1, he uses all of his students and allegedly charges them 1600 a year each to wrestle for him for "insurance". Of course they work for free. You've got Mark Mercedes (Former WCW job guy) running another company that tours and actually makes money and you've got Ryan and Madison Eagles running PWA. They make money and are the "smart mark" promotion.
Problem is these promotions aren't smart about what they do. If I was running a smaller company I'd get creative with it and really kick the story lines off but I'd offer something for everyone. Hot girls wrestling in the midcard, muscular guys, freakish guys, high flyers, hardcore guys etc etc and they're all coming together for a night of action that can't be missed. It's the carnival meets ultimate fight. Most companies here just do the whole "We're great wrestlers" thing or the "Hey, here's 5 random matches, enjoy"
Also, the concession stands are always lacking. If I'm running summertime in the Australian heat I'm charging 2 dollars for a can of soda and buying them for a dollar from the supermarket. I'm selling ice blocks for a dollar each at the concession stand for the kids, depending on how close I am to the closest takeaway outlet maybe I've got a guy cooking sausages and selling sausage sandwiches for 2 dollars a pop. No promoters do this and a lot of them are running community halls where a whole entire kitchen is available. These are small profits (Lets face it, you'd be lucky to walk away with an extra couple hundred from food) but it all adds up.
Merchandise is a problem as well. A lot of companies do specific company merchandise that relates to their company only but in this country most people attending live shows are hardcore WWE fans so why not sell WWE merchandise at the stands? You can go on eBay and buy WWE DVD's for a few dollars which means at your show you could literally have a basket full of DVD's with everything selling for 10 bucks. Action Figures, Books, CD's, Clothes etc etc mixed in with your company specific merchandise and suddenly you've got three income streams from the live show (Food, Merch and Tickets) instead of just one (Tickets)
When I was a teenager I used to watch a local company and they had a wrestling vendor who did phenomenal business. Most of his money came from selling old WWE DVD's (Usually with someone popular like Cena or Triple H on the cover) and WWE Action Figures. He'd have at least 10-15 people gathered around his table before the show and during intermission. Little bit of business after the show sometimes for him as well. He'd make deals with the promoters when a "name" was in town and he'd get 10-15 pieces of merchandise signed and then take it around to the other indies and sell the items for 40-50 bucks and because "name" talent is rare here people would pay it.
You can add another revenue stream by forward promoting as well. I used to attend another indy and every three months they'd come to town with a "name" but they'd never forward promote the "name" talent they'd just say "On October 7th we'll be back here" and they'd plug the local guys. If it was my show I'd have the ticket people standing at the exit and I'd be offering a five dollar discount for next time if they buy their tickets right now. The people have seen a good show, they probably want some more and with a small discount it's probably too good to resist especially if the "name" is someone they recognise or like.
Anyway apart from that I think you want new faces every now and then even if it is just a freelancer on your show. A lot of promoters think their core roster of 12 is enough to sell out time after time but it's not. The people want a new face every now and then which most indies suffer with.
Even if you do all that most companies are going to remain very small though.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonybrooklyn on Mar 8, 2016 17:38:55 GMT -8
Correct on everything you say. All things I've done or tried to do....except sell WWE merch. You understand the promotion game. Problem is, it didn't work. Not to the level of "success" I wanted at least. Like I've said before, some promoters may have thought we were doing incredible. A local promotion JUMPED in to my building within 24 hours of me announcing the suspension of our promotion's events. They think they've hit a gold mine. On the other hand, I feel like I've escaped a bottomless pitt. Back on topic for a minute.....who do you guys hold responsible for the failure of getting the Vicksburg TV taping done? I've been in Parker's shoes.....I admire him for recognizing the situation he was in, and getting out. In my opinion, this situation is a result of yet another "no win" situation for the promoter/investor. The brand has nothing to offer. The brand brought no value. Tom was able to see as much and did the right thing. I don't doubt for one minute that Tom's retirement is genuine....right now. But he has the itch. If a good opportunity were to pop up I think you'd see Tom work in the position of a "consultant" at the very least. I believe "retiring" was the easiest way out. Telling the brand that they are worthless wouldn't have helped him in any way. I believe TCW was about the best run at independent wrestling I've seen in TV form. Parker was EVP of talent and wrestling operations from 2012-2013. Matt Riviera did an incredible job with that promotion. Given support and resources, Parker seemed to do a good job there. He had no tools with he Alliance.....well maybe one.  |
|
Sticky Fingers Stamboli
Guest
|
Post by Sticky Fingers Stamboli on Mar 9, 2016 13:45:33 GMT -8
Some of those are great ideas. Some of them are harder than you think. Getting a guy to cook up sausages isn't hard. But do you know of anyone who's willing to work for free? I mean, if I had a buddy running a show, I'm not going to be running his concessions for free. That's just real talk.
|
|
|
|
Post by coltomparker on Mar 9, 2016 17:25:46 GMT -8
Gentlemen,
Let me elaborate on my retirement.Tony as I shared with you earlier in the week,the reasons are purely time and money.As some of you know,I run two relatively successful radio stations in Vicksburg,Ms.Our only local competitor hired my Operations Manager out from under us which has thrown our operation into a bit of a state of flux.In addition I lost a long time friend and employee three weeks ago.He went home after working a club gig,had a massive heart attack and died at the age of 43.My best friend and business partner in a couple of other ventures is undergoing treatment at MD Anderson in Houston,and his prognosis is not good.
I came to the realization that my time and energies were better served elsewhere.I really have no great issue with Bruce or any NWA member.I see some things that I wish were handled differently.But it appears Bruce is allowing James Beard the leeway to work those issues out.
I retired once before.I came out of that retirement to work for Matt at TCW.I know we created something special.It's Matt's business why he chose to close it,so I won't discuss it further.However,we were on the cusp of achieving great things.I spread that television syndication a long way in just under a year.
It's wrestling,so I never say never.But when I can make more money a few miles from my own bed,it makes sense to do so.Wrestling done right is an expensive proposition.I have four casinos here in Vicksburg,it's a lot less painless to take a few grand down there,put it on the pass line ans say "Roll Them Bones"!!
|
|
|
|
Post by tonybrooklyn on Mar 9, 2016 17:51:23 GMT -8
Gentlemen, Let me elaborate on my retirement.Tony as I shared with you earlier in the week,the reasons are purely time and money.As some of you know,I run two relatively successful radio stations in Vicksburg,Ms.Our only local competitor hired my Operations Manager out from under us which has thrown our operation into a bit of a state of flux.In addition I lost a long time friend and employee three weeks ago.He went home after working a club gig,had a massive heart attack and died at the age of 43.My best friend and business partner in a couple of other ventures is undergoing treatment at MD Anderson in Houston,and his prognosis is not good. I came to the realization that my time and energies were better served elsewhere.I really have no great issue with Bruce or any NWA member.I see some things that I wish were handled differently.But it appears Bruce is allowing James Beard the leeway to work those issues out. I retired once before.I came out of that retirement to work for Matt at TCW.I know we created something special.It's Matt's business why he chose to close it,so I won't discuss it further.However,we were on the cusp of achieving great things.I spread that television syndication a long way in just under a year. It's wrestling,so I never say never.But when I can make more money a few miles from my own bed,it makes sense to do so.Wrestling done right is an expensive proposition.I have four casinos here in Vicksburg,it's a lot less painless to take a few grand down there,put it on the pass line ans say "Roll Them Bones"!! Very respectful response from a first class guy. As Tom points out, what he and Matt were able to accomplish at TCW was indeed special. In my opinion, there are a couple of reasons for that. The talent, commitment and know how of both Tom and Matt....and of course the resources Matt provided. Tom is spot on about the time commitment. If you are really working it, it (wrestling) can cannibalize your time. I know first hand. With some help, some of that pressure can be relieved. Tom, as I mentioned to you prior, prayers remain with your friend who passed away...and the individual who is dealing with cancer. As you know, not many in the industry are able/willing to put work, friends and family above wrestling....I commend you for being one who can. Money is the main thing. The TCW project was well funded. It wasn't Tom having to risk his own money. Think about that in contrast to the likely alliance "opportunity". How much do you think the alliance was offering in financial support to Tom's efforts? What was the "win" for Tom. Tom mentioned that he would consider being involved in wrestling if he could make money. He touched on the expense in doing it well. Obviously the alliance opportunity didn't offer help with any of that. |
|
|
|
Post by gmellos on Mar 10, 2016 9:52:44 GMT -8
My question is that if Tharpe has a rep for suing partners, and forcing promotions to put him in show so he be the focal point why would any want to do business with him?
|
|
|
|
Post by tonybrooklyn on Mar 10, 2016 15:51:14 GMT -8
When I was still there, nearly everyone I talked to had questions about the manner in which we acquired the brand. Thats one of the first things they wanted to talk about. It's all public record. No matter if you are NJPW, Spike or a small town promoter, it's a turn off.
|
|
|
|
Post by gmellos on Mar 10, 2016 16:43:29 GMT -8
When I was still there, nearly everyone I talked to had questions about the manner in which we acquired the brand. Thats one of the first things they wanted to talk about. It's all public record. No matter if you are NJPW, Spike or a small town promoter, it's a turn off. Well shit man, you guys basically got control because the previous group didn't have the money to fight Tharpe. So I don't blame people for being concerned. Now imagined that he he pushed out his partners I doubt anyone in their right mind is going to work with him. |
|
