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Post by MKCS on Nov 18, 2016 2:56:29 GMT -8
Was just listening to Al Snow doing a seminar and he told a story about how Tony Atlas debuted in a territory back in the day and Ole Anderson who was promoting introduced him with 4 weeks worth of hype. Week 1 saw Atlas come out and introduce himself shirtless to sell that he's got a great physique, week 2 he comes out and says that next week he's going to try and bench press 500 pounds and asks everyone to come out to the arena to support him while he attempts it. Week 3 rolls around and they put the weights by the door to sell that he's legitimately going to lift 500 pounds, the ring crew sell how much it weighs.
Anyway, Atlas successfully lifts the weight, the crowd go wild, Atlas gets on the microphone and says "I'm having my first match next week, please come out and support me.". This allegedly sells out the entire building but Atlas kills himself when he has a 12 minute match with a much smaller man with Ole telling him that he should have beat the other dude in a much shorter time.
Anyway, old school wrestling used to have a lot of this stuff. More simplistic angles, more realistic story lines and characters and it was also a time where a gimmick wrestler was actually a big deal. If you had a 600 pound obese wrestler debut back in the 80's he was considered a legitimate threat and could sell tickets from body slam contests, squash matches and six months later your top guy could barely pull out the win. These days a 600 pounder would be viewed on their work rate with most thinking they have no place in wrestling.
I'm rambling but the NWA and it's territories obviously love old school wrestling. Can these older style angles and characters work today? Instead of aiming to compete with everyone else on work rate should these companies go in a completely different direction and simply debut a tough man who is going to try and win matches?
I'd be interested in your views.
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Post by damienwayne on Nov 18, 2016 4:18:14 GMT -8
I can definitely say that a old school style match (a good "real" heel, 1 or if any high spot, work the crowd, being believable) still works.
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Post by josephd32 on Nov 18, 2016 5:06:42 GMT -8
Depends on the part of the country, what that audience grew up watching, and what is going on around them now.
If you're in PWG territory like we are, often times with the audience, spots > story.
If you're in an area where that was traditionally NWA, going back to the Jim Crockett Promotions era where memories of "6:05 on the Superstation" still linger, then it's got a better shot of working.
Either way, the 600 pounder should probably be a 1-2 minute killer, because... dude is 600 pounds and most likely, his opponent is not. That, and having the super muscle men try to go on work rate tends to leave the bulkier guy legitimately blown up--a few exceptions are out there. If you're going to do this, the blown up bulky guy should lose the match even if his opponent is considerably smaller, because one can believe that guy lost due to exhaustion. However, the bigger guy should hit almost none of his major damage moves during the match unless it's part of a Tag match and the smaller guy manages to somehow make that hot tag. Once he does, that little guy should be laying in that corner, half-dead for the remainder of the match. If he's tagged back in at any point, he should eat the three-count.
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Post by NWA Fanatic on Nov 18, 2016 9:15:08 GMT -8
Old School booking can work in 2016/17. It just has to be done right. You don't need to give everything in your first match or show. You need to tell a story, get people invested in your events and coming back for more.
You have way to many companies giving everything they have in one night and hoping you come back for more. But why come back when you saw everything that night.
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Post by Jay Cal on Nov 18, 2016 9:27:26 GMT -8
I think in order to be a good promoter, you need to know your audience. If you already have an established audience, then you cater to the crowd you're currently serving. In Joseph's point, in SoCal we have a hard on for spots. PWG is everything wrong and everything right in wrestling. They jam a much higher occupancy then they should into their little building, they have celebrities shows up, hell even WWE officials stop in when they're in town.
But I think you can have your spots, based around better story telling. To each his own I guess. But I could see that Atlas "style" angle working in Southern California if done in front of the right crowd. Obviously PWG fans have been trained for little story telling and death defying moves. But about 50 miles East of Los Angeles, Empire Wrestling Federation routinely draws 200 plus for more storyline driven talent, with little to no name value. Occasionally they'll book a Joey Ryan, TJ Perkins (before signing with the WWE), Scorpio Sky or a Chavo Guerrero Jr., but for the most part they use home grown talent. I believe there is room for both.
The NWA should focus on more storyline and less Spots. EVOLVE, ROH, PWG, etc. etc. etc., will do it better. The idea at this point is to leverage your niche into an alternative. Quit trying to compete with the WWE, TNA, ROH, PWG, EVOLVE, etc, and start giving fans a true alternative. I think you can see CWFH already attempting that.
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Post by ZEKE on Nov 18, 2016 18:46:26 GMT -8
Remember when someone was giving an interview in studio and they would be talking trash and then out of the corner of their eye they would see the guy who they are talking trash about and they'd have that promo one on one? That's the realism I want to see. you talk trash about someone, they come out nose to nose.
They don't magically have their entrance music begin as they walk down. Like the guys in the gorilla position go "oh Look, he is about to go confront him, quick get his music on!"
Heels that get under your skin, I don't think there is one heel out there that gets people pissed off... Jericho tries when he calls the crowd a bunch of idiots, but even he cant get them riled up enough...
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Post by shawn on Nov 18, 2016 22:24:15 GMT -8
Is that old school booking or just simple wrestling booking?
If you watch UFC 205, the build up, the actual show with Yoel Romero promo, Khabib promo,Conor,3 dramatic championship showdowns but all different,etc. It was so good I don't think Bill Watts in his prime could have booked anything that perfect. It gave me that feeling as a fan that I haven't experienced in a very long time.
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Post by MKCS on Nov 19, 2016 0:08:18 GMT -8
It's old school, the idea of wrestling now seems to be put two guys together and see how great they can work together to create a 5 star match. Back in the day you could get six months out of two guys feuding without a match. The match wasn't as important as the build up, the story, the hype and everything else. Now the match IS the show.
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Post by nwasmokymtn on Nov 19, 2016 3:12:32 GMT -8
Regardless of how it's marketed all pro wrestling matches, angles and programs are based on the same three act structure.
There isn't a "style" as much as what gets over to each audience in each market. We give people different stuff from time to time and what gets over stays and what doesn't get over goes away.
A promoter or booker has to be flexible and see what the people are buying and conform to that.
The worst thing a promoter can do is to be a mark and book what he wants to see instead of what the customers want to see. That's like a chef saying "I like the steak, but the customers said it tastes like shit but I'll keep making it because they are wrong and I'm right."
If people in East Tennessee wanted to see World of Sport, I'd be switching to rounds next week.
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Post by nwanortheast on Nov 21, 2016 15:27:43 GMT -8
Absolutely can work!
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Post by oldterritories on Nov 23, 2016 14:06:43 GMT -8
Not only do I think it can work it is my personal preference when following a promotion.
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Post by tonybrooklyn on Nov 23, 2016 22:04:51 GMT -8
Everyone here likes old school....the fact remains that the modern fan doesn't....and the modern fan is the one spending the money. WWE is the only "wrestling" they really know or care to spend money on. Add all of the other US companies and independents together and what market share do you get? It's just not there. In essence, WWE has a monopoly on "wrestling" and has trained the current money spending fans on their style. They aren't suddenly going to start liking old school. It's not what they were raised on. Sad but reality.
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Post by MKCS on Nov 24, 2016 1:16:29 GMT -8
But Tony, for your company if you were promoting could you potentially debut a local guy in your company who is muscled up and make money from something like him lifting 500 pounds? For me personally I would be interested in seeing if he could do it and would probably pay my ticket price (If it were reasonable) just to see if he could do it. Then, they'd get my money the next time around to see him wrestle his first match, would that not work for you or other local promoters? I'm genuinely curious.
To me, if a local promotion was offering something like The Iron Sheik Persian Club challenge or the old Pepper Gomez challenges I'd be interested. It's different then the whole "Hey, lets put on a great match" and if you could offer things like that mixed in with good stories, characters that get me emotionally invested and genuinely interesting shows I'd be more willing to pay my money.
I haven't attended an indy show in years. Why? I don't care if Wrestler A is going to have a great five star match with Wrestler B. If you hooked me with a great story line and the only way to find out what is going to happen next is to buy a ticket I'd be there monthly.
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Post by MrWood on Nov 24, 2016 3:42:41 GMT -8
But Tony, for your company if you were promoting could you potentially debut a local guy in your company who is muscled up and make money from something like him lifting 500 pounds? For me personally I would be interested in seeing if he could do it and would probably pay my ticket price (If it were reasonable) just to see if he could do it. Then, they'd get my money the next time around to see him wrestle his first match, would that not work for you or other local promoters? I'm genuinely curious. To me, if a local promotion was offering something like The Iron Sheik Persian Club challenge or the old Pepper Gomez challenges I'd be interested. It's different then the whole "Hey, lets put on a great match" and if you could offer things like that mixed in with good stories, characters that get me emotionally invested and genuinely interesting shows I'd be more willing to pay my money. I haven't attended an indy show in years. Why? I don't care if Wrestler A is going to have a great five star match with Wrestler B. If you hooked me with a great story line and the only way to find out what is going to happen next is to buy a ticket I'd be there monthly. I don't think what's being described is based on old school or new school...It's storytelling. WHO? WHAT? WHERE? WHY? HOW?Logic!
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Post by MKCS on Nov 24, 2016 4:10:13 GMT -8
I guess but these days in modern style wrestling storytelling for most companies is within the ring as both guys try and achieve a 5 star wrestling match so in a way telling a story with angles is considered old school or "WWE style"
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